This & that

[juliet]

The Home Office now stopping people in the street on the basis of their race (& note also that they want to stop benefits/housing for failed asylum seekers with small kids, as well. So we're getting rid of them by starving their children, are we? Fantastic).

And a less depressing link:
the Underground turned upside-down (picked this up off someone else a couple of weeks ago).

Hunt Bill being discussed today. Thumbs crossed...

Interesting site showing current US voting polls - bit depressing atm, though.

I don't think I have any US readers who are currently overseas, or indeed any US readers at all, but just in case: register online for overseas/absentee ballot.

Comments

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

If they were claiming asylum though, they weren't illegal when they immigrated. Personally though, I'm perfectly happy with finding a practical way of taking them from a failure at the final determination of their claim straight to the airport. I fear, however, my views on law and order might be flamewar central round here.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

I am not going to start a flamewar in Juliet's journal, but I would like to given what you have said. Would you care to p[ost in your own journal so we can discuss?

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

I don't especially want a flamewar there.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

A discussion then?

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Yes but have a scan through the rest of my friends. It'd have to be a public entry for starters so you could participate, then it would become a flamewar.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

They are *not* illegal immigrants, owing to the existence of several internatioinal human rights conventions to which the UK is a signatory, and the standard of decision making on asylum claims is extremely poor. Not to mention the legacy of British imperialism which in most cases has caused the situation they are fleeing from.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

They are *not* illegal immigrants

That's what I said. Thank you for agreeing.

the standard of decision making on asylum claims is extremely poor.

Nonetheless, we have a process which makes the decisions, it seems a rather expensive and pointless rigmarole if we then plan to ignore it because it might be wrong.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

But we dont. Again further to a number of international human rights conventions and the Human Rights Act we give failed asylum seekers rights of appeal. When those rights are exhausted they are removed from the UK.
Which part of that is "ignoring" the initial decision making process?

As for expensive - the Home Office Immigration and Nationality Department by its own admission is severely understaffed and underresoureced. The initial decision makers are on salaries of around 14k and the Presenting Officers who appear in the Tribunals are on around 18K, and there are so few of them that these hearings are repeatedly adjourned.Asylum seekers receive no benefits or housing at any stage of the process and their right to receive assistance from the social services are extremely limited. The Legal Aid they receive during the appeal process is extremely limited: for example they are given no paid representation at Court during the appeal process, despite the fact that research and statistics have shown repeatedly that cases where there is no such representation fail in entirely disproportionate numbers compared to those which do have representation and despite the fact that if a mistake has been made at any stage of the process failed asylum seekers will be returned to countries where they may be facing rape, torture and execution.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

When those rights are exhausted they are removed from the UK.

Then what's the issue with whether they get benefits, if they're no longer in the UK, why would they?

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

I am not advocating that they should receive benefits after removal from the UK! Why would you think that!?

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Because I am saying that they shouldn't get benefits after they have exhausted the appeals process, and you are saying

1) That I am wrong to advocate this removal of benefits
2) That they are removed when they have exhausted the appeals process

Clearly it's a long time since I studied logic, but it seems to me that these things can't hold simultaneously.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

OK, I think your last sentence is too personal for this to continue here without entering flame war territory. This is a shame, because you dont come across as a knee jerk racist and I would have liked to continue a reasoned discussion. To deal with your immediate point however, I am advocating that "failed" asylum seekers should be supported during the time they remain in the UK while going through the appeals process as is reuired under international human rights law. I am not even saying that "failed" asylum seekers should not ultimately be removed, but my experience of the decision making process as a lawyer has caused me to have serious concerns about removal in the vasr majority of case.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

I'm at a loss to understand how pointing out that two things can't hold simultaneously is 'illogical' counts as personal. They would be illogical if I said them, if Juliet said them, if Tony Blair said them, or if Saddam Hussein said them, there's nothing personal in it. But never mind.

I am advocating that "failed" asylum seekers should be supported during the time they remain in the UK while going through the appeals process as is reuired under international human rights law

So am I, and as far as I'm aware so is the Government. My reading of their proposals comes second-hand I'm afraid, but I tend to rely on the Guardian/Observer not to be too generous to the Government on these issues, and they called the suggested change

"Home Office plans to withdraw benefits from those who had exhausted the appeals process"

So it seems we still agree.

[conflux.livejournal.com]

Have I ever mentioned that you and Lilli totally rock? I've just read this thread and you put it so well and really spelled out the problem.

[lilithmagna.livejournal.com]

Thank you David.