juliet: green glowing disembodied brain (branes)
juliet ([personal profile] juliet) wrote2007-09-12 12:36 pm

Languages (and sewing and elephants)

I read this New Yorker article about the Piraha tribe and language yesterday - long but fascinating.

I've never really bought the Chomsky universal grammar thing. More than anything else, it just seems to be unnecessarily complicated. Children are exposed to a lot of language from the moment they leave the womb; to me it would seem more surprising if they didn't pick it up so readily. (And, really, we're talking about 5-6 years to adult competence, which is quite a long time.)

There's also not been very much research done on the extent to which surrounding adults model and correct children's language; and although there has been some research on the sorts of error that children make (which Chomsky claims in support of his thesis, on the basis that certain sorts of grammatical error are very rare/never seen), again, given the extent to which they have models around them, I'm not sure that this means much either. If you never hear construction X, though you hear constructions Y, Z, and A through D, surely it would be more surprising if you experimented with construction X, rather than making mistakes in the correct usage of the other constructions? (The connectionist people are working on computer models of this, with some success.)

Anyway: the Piraha are I think interesting in the extent to which culture and language work together. One of the pro-Chomsky arguments is about the sorts of sign language which deaf children will self-develop; it would be interesting to know what sort of sign language deaf Piraha children would self-develop. My suspicion is that even without being able to hear, the cultural background would affect the grammar; and so Piraha sign language would not fit the Chomskyan universal grammar either.

In other news: I finished my summer dress, which has come out pretty well.

And yesterday I went along the south bank of the Serpentine to work, & encountered elephants! Anyone in the vicinity should go visit them.

[identity profile] d-floorlandmine.livejournal.com 2007-09-12 11:44 am (UTC)(link)
In other news: I finished my summer dress, which has come out pretty well.
Ooh, nice!

(And also wow for elephants!)
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[personal profile] kake 2007-09-12 12:16 pm (UTC)(link)
To save anyone else needing to look it up: the elephants are there until Tuesday 18th September.
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[personal profile] lnr 2007-09-12 02:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah drat, the trains aren't running at weekends til November, so I shall miss them.

Lovely dress Juliet!
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[personal profile] kake 2007-09-12 02:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Argh, what, not at all? I'm supposed to be coming to Cambridge on Sunday!
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[personal profile] lnr 2007-09-12 03:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmm, maybe I'm wrong. We were told there were bustitutions from Cambridge all weekends between now and end of October, but planner on national rail enquiries site seems to think there are trains from KX to Cambridge on Sunday after all. Looks like it's just Saturday affected this weekend.

See http://nationalrail.co.uk/service_bulletins/currentAndFuture.html if you want to try and make more sense of it. You'll have to search for Cambridge to find the relevant sections.
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[personal profile] kake 2007-09-15 05:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Ta. The planner has now decided that there are in fact rail replacement buses for part of the route, but it's only Royston to Cambridge, which I hope won't be too bad.
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[personal profile] lnr 2007-09-15 05:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Shouldn't take too long, especially if you can find a direct rather than stopping one.

It's a complete nuisance given there were a couple of things this month and next I quite fancied bringing my bike down for - they don't take bikes on rail replacement buses for planned engineering work.

[identity profile] rgl.livejournal.com 2007-09-12 12:31 pm (UTC)(link)
although there has been some research on the sorts of error that children make ... given the extent to which they have models around them, I'm not sure that this means much either.

It might be meaningful. It very much depends on whether you expect the distribution of errors to be related to the distribution of prior experiences. You're suggesting that the two would be similar (and moreover that errors are experiments rather than accidents), but it could be that errors are more "random" than that. But I think the only way you're going to come up with any idea of the plausible distribution of errors is through neural network modelling, as you mention.

[identity profile] rgl.livejournal.com 2007-09-12 01:39 pm (UTC)(link)
The best analogy I can think of is this - the mistakes I make when playing guitar are not necessarily related in kind to the variations I hear in the music I listen to. The former are likely to have a lot to do with motor processing and the latter to do with auditory processing (although they'll probably overlap to some extent - some musical inspiration will be the result of accidents in performance). More generally, then, the distribution of errors might not a priori be expected to be the same as the distribution of experiences.

[identity profile] rgl.livejournal.com 2007-09-21 08:35 am (UTC)(link)
In case you're still interested, there's an article on this in today's Science:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/317/5845/1674

(that link probably only accessible from a university network)

[identity profile] mrs-leroy-brown.livejournal.com 2007-09-12 02:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Hooray for finished dress! It is lovely :)
not commenting on the brain / language thing bcos I don't get it...