This & that

[juliet]

The Home Office now stopping people in the street on the basis of their race (& note also that they want to stop benefits/housing for failed asylum seekers with small kids, as well. So we're getting rid of them by starving their children, are we? Fantastic).

And a less depressing link:
the Underground turned upside-down (picked this up off someone else a couple of weeks ago).

Hunt Bill being discussed today. Thumbs crossed...

Interesting site showing current US voting polls - bit depressing atm, though.

I don't think I have any US readers who are currently overseas, or indeed any US readers at all, but just in case: register online for overseas/absentee ballot.

Comments

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Except that if they have young children then removing support for them from housing authorities and benefits authorities will just mean that they have to be housed and supported by social services authorities. Can you guess which one of those three things we are...

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

...and lo, just as I press the post button, I get a twenty-minute call from a member of the public who is never voting Labour again because we're soft on asylum blah blah blah.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

If they were claiming asylum though, they weren't illegal when they immigrated. Personally though, I'm perfectly happy with finding a practical way of taking them from a failure at the final determination of their claim straight to the airport. I fear, however, my views on law and order might be flamewar central round here.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

I am not going to start a flamewar in Juliet's journal, but I would like to given what you have said. Would you care to p[ost in your own journal so we can discuss?

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

I don't especially want a flamewar there.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

A discussion then?

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Yes but have a scan through the rest of my friends. It'd have to be a public entry for starters so you could participate, then it would become a flamewar.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

They are *not* illegal immigrants, owing to the existence of several internatioinal human rights conventions to which the UK is a signatory, and the standard of decision making on asylum claims is extremely poor. Not to mention the legacy of British imperialism which in most cases has caused the situation they are fleeing from.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

They are *not* illegal immigrants

That's what I said. Thank you for agreeing.

the standard of decision making on asylum claims is extremely poor.

Nonetheless, we have a process which makes the decisions, it seems a rather expensive and pointless rigmarole if we then plan to ignore it because it might be wrong.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

But we dont. Again further to a number of international human rights conventions and the Human Rights Act we give failed asylum seekers rights of appeal. When those rights are exhausted they are removed from the UK.
Which part of that is "ignoring" the initial decision making process?

As for expensive - the Home Office Immigration and Nationality Department by its own admission is severely understaffed and underresoureced. The initial decision makers are on salaries of around 14k and the Presenting Officers who appear in the Tribunals are on around 18K, and there are so few of them that these hearings are repeatedly adjourned.Asylum seekers receive no benefits or housing at any stage of the process and their right to receive assistance from the social services are extremely limited. The Legal Aid they receive during the appeal process is extremely limited: for example they are given no paid representation at Court during the appeal process, despite the fact that research and statistics have shown repeatedly that cases where there is no such representation fail in entirely disproportionate numbers compared to those which do have representation and despite the fact that if a mistake has been made at any stage of the process failed asylum seekers will be returned to countries where they may be facing rape, torture and execution.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

When those rights are exhausted they are removed from the UK.

Then what's the issue with whether they get benefits, if they're no longer in the UK, why would they?

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

Are you serious?

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

See my posts in response to beingjdc, and you could try Amnesty International's website. In any event Juliet's original post is about people who in the majority of case in London at least will be Black UK citizens or visitors here entirely legal being stopped and questioned on the basis of skin colour alone - do you not think that is a human rights issue?

[lilithmagna.livejournal.com]

Simply because something is lawful, or unlawful, doesnot mean that it is right or wrong. Apartheid was lawful in its day, and the activities of the ANC were illegal. Rosa Parkes broke the law by riding in the white portuion of the bus. What do you think you mean by this phrase? See also my comments below.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

As indeed they should be. I pay my Council Tax and I dont want those fleeing persecution to be destitute and homeless in the UK, a counrtry whose wealth grew out of ruthless imperialist exploitation of the rest of the world.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Fine, unfortunately my job involves spending much of my days talking to council tax payers, and as far as they are concerned, the people we are discussing have claimed to be fleeing persecution, have been found not to be fleeing persecution, and are therefore in effect fraudsters.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

I.am.a.Council.Tax.payer.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

I have been collecting public opinion in one way or another since 1997. In that time, one person has responded to a formal question telling me that they think we are too unkind to immigrants in general. Being told that the asylum system is too lax is a weekly event at best, often a daily one, sometimes by representatives of ethnic minority groups who are concerned that a flawed asylum system is giving political space for a code attack on all former foreigners and their families.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

Presumably you subscribe to the notion that we live in a democracy. Leaving aside the question of how wide a cross section of public opinion you have "collected" working in a local authority, I have always understood that the principles of democracy involved listening to all voices, not just those of what may appear to be the majority.

I am not in the least surprised by what you say about ethnic minority groups, having worked at the Commission for Racial Equality for seven years - those safely and legally present in the UK are just as inclined to "pull the ladder up" thinking as any other group.

[ergotia.livejournal.com]

Fraud involves an intention to deceive. I worked in immigration law for many years and my partner has done so for nearly 10 years. Neither of us have any naive idealism left. We have met less than a handful of "bogus" asylum seekers. The Home Office and the Courts interpret the Convention definition of refugee as narrowly as possible, so that for example asylum seekers fleeing the well documented chaos in Somalia (not going to go into the imperialist history here, but there sure is one) do not receive refugee status although they are usually given exceptional leave to remain in the UK lawfully. On the face of it though the claims for asylum of those given exceptional leave to remain have failed and are recorded as such. Those who do not fit the narrowly construed definition of refugee in the vast majority of cases genuinely believe their lives are in danger in the countries they have fled from, as the Home Office and Courts freely admit.

That's a lot of stuff to read but it's good to read it all

[webcowgirl.livejournal.com]

I will have to work my way through all of these threads this weekend. I wish I could be there in person to listen to you advocate on this issue. A lot of the people who talk about the illegal immigrants sucking up our resources in the US ignore how much they contribute through their work in the underground economy ... in fact, they work harder than most Americans do, it's heartbreaking (and back breaking and limb removing for them). And interestingly enough the entire welfare system has been quite effectively presented to the US public as something supporting inner city blacks, making it easy for a lot of middle class (white) Americans to say they're against it ... despite the fact that in fact it supports far more poverty stricken whites. The success of right wing media manipulation is truly depressing

The US system is similarly f**ed up (like the British). We call all Haitians economic refugees, as if it wasn't US policy that made them all so destitute, and then have a blanket acceptance policy about Cuban refugees (*if* they make it to shore) as they are fleeing a regime that we want to make a point about ... and the Cuban voting block in Florida is *very powerful.* Um, I mean, as the Cubans are fleeing EVIL COMMUNISM whereas the Haitians are merely fleeing starvation and midnight execution, so they're not "political" refugees.