Interesting things

[juliet]

• Sign the Indymedia petition (more details on the FBI seizure of their machines at that link)


• Found this on Strange Machine (marnameow should like this)


• Alien Loves Predator (made kitty_goth & I laugh immoderately)


• MY MONITARY SISTEM IS f1dud14ry & 133t!!!!!! (especially this one)

Comments

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Ah, I'm afraid it was (e). Here y'go.

http://newswire.indymedia.org/en/newswire/2004/05/802998.shtml

We have lots of restrictions on free speech, most of them for damn good reasons.

[fluffymormegil.livejournal.com]

Providing a platform for whackjobs is, unfortunately, a good way to get yourself associated with their whackjobbery, of course.

[burkesworks.livejournal.com]

Take a look at the final comment on this page. BTW, John Paul Cupp has a known reputation as an utter crackpot (see kennedybak's journal), and AFAIK has nothing at all to do with Indymedia.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Nothing to do with them apart from the fact that they are publishing his writings and therefore funding Holocaust denial.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Yes, funny that it's suddenly a spoof five months after it's posted, and after people start noticing it, rather than at the time... You'll excuse me for being a bit sceptical of a news organisation that evidently has no fact or quality control filter.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Here's a few more - I believe indymedia sites elsewhere in the world are part of the same dubious network, aren't they?

http://melbimc.nomasters.org/news/2004/06/71087.php
http://www.sdimc.org/en/2004/05/104243.shtml

[peshwengi.livejournal.com]

You seem to think that because you disagree with some things that Indymedia has published, that they should not have the same rights as other people/organisations.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

I don't especially think those who recklessly promote denial of the Holocaust should have any rights at all. This isn't about 'disagreeing with something they have published' as though whether or not the Holocaust happened is a debate in the same way 'Do you like Kylie's new single' is a debate.

[thekumquat.livejournal.com]

I don't especially think those who recklessly promote denial of the Holocaust should have any rights at all.

In that case we are doomed to differ. I fundamentally believe that human rights have to extend to all humans, no matter how odious. Part of that stems from the selfish belief that if they don't, people who find my way of life abhorrent can take those rights from me.

I also think the best way to deal with whackjobs is to have their beliefs out in the open for all to ridicule and beware of, but that's a separate issue.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Actually it's a pretty similar issue, and your view is one which leads inexorably to the principle of the BNP roadshow, that the best way to stop the BNP would be to take their leaders round every town in the country, encouraging them to address public meetings.

I think there's a reason why every antifascist group I've ever known takes the opposite approach.

[fluffymormegil.livejournal.com]

I think there's a reason why I tend to suspect the antifa of being a bunch of dangerous fuckwits.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

My best guess: It's because you're a liberal and not part of a visible minority. Also, you don't live somewhere with a serious far-right problem.

[fluffymormegil.livejournal.com]

Thugs have no legitimate place in the political process. Both the fascists and the antifa tolerate (and to some greater or lesser extent, encourage) thuggery on their behalf; therefore, they are both dangerous fuckwits.
(Also, I rejected the terminology of left and right to a significant extent some time ago; it lumps looney propertarian gun nuts in the same category as fascists, and state communists in the same category as anarchosyndicalists, proving its own bogosity.)

[peshwengi.livejournal.com]

Whew, that guy writes like a 12 year-old. The "inverted commas" hurt my eyes (and my brain).

[the23.livejournal.com]

i can't think of any damn good reasons except maybe where campaign finance is concerned.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

OK, restrictions on free speech which I think are good ones.

1) If I ring someone up and say "Hey, let's go out and rob a bank this afternoon, here's where you can buy some big guns", that's two crimes, and rightly so.

2) If I stand at the top of the high street and say "Hey, blacks are taking over the country, and faggots too, let's kill them all, come on, kill them now!" that's one crime, and one thing that probably is, and ought to be firmed up to be.

3) If I write all over my LJ "the23 is a paeodophile who has sex with little boys", that's a civil offence, and I can be bound over not to say it again, and rightly so.

4) If I ring up the fire brigade and say "hey, the house across the road from me is on fire, come quickly!", and it in fact isn't, that's a crime, and rightly so.

5) If I find out at work that we are providing secure transport for nuclear material which could be used to make a dirty bomb, and there's a flaw in the security, and instead of fixing it, I ring up my local Al Qaeda supporter, that's a crime, and rightly so.

6) If I write a newspaper article saying that the UK should stop being a monarchy, that's a crime, and on reflection probably didn't ought to be.

[the23.livejournal.com]

someone has already tried something remarkably similar to 3) (i'm not kidding) and my world didn't fall apart at the seams so i'll happily rule that one out.

in 1) we are talking about conspiracy which frankly i'm not sure about (the law is certainly too strict, but that isn't to say that all conspiracy is fine) and if the secondary point is something to do with guns I ought to be able to buy any gun from anyone. 5) is similar.

2) is similar but instead of conspiracy and guns we have threats and racism. Voicing racist opinions definitely shouldn't be illegal and if the threat are as vague and ridiculous as in this example they clearly shouldn't be taken seriously either. That's not to say though that calling someone and threatening to kill them shouldn't be illegal, and you could say that impinges on freedom of speech.

4) has some validity although i'm sure it ought to be a civil issue rather than a criminal one (given that the fire brigade should be private).

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

given that the fire brigade should be private

Oh, sorry, my mistake, I didn't realise you were a libertarian, or I wouldn't have entered into a debate at all.

[the23.livejournal.com]

ha! you're coming on like tony blair.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Oh I just find it worth it, I'm a socialist, and I believe in the power of the state to do good, I believe that the private sector tends to deliver for those who are already wealthy (though I do believe in markets). I can argue with conservatives and liberals, I have enough in common with them to work out why we disagree and what about. Arguing with libertarians is like having a debate about the answer to a maths problem with someone who is using base 26, we'll never agree. Fortunately 99.9% of people round here think libertarians are wacko nutjobs, so it doesn't much matter.

[the23.livejournal.com]

that's one reason why i am reluctant to come back. i don't care what people think of me, but living somewhere so expensive just seems far too muchlike hard work to me. the one incentive to come back involves the one area where blair has shown an inclination to be liberal - gambling.

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Doesn't feel especially expensive here. I dunno, maybe I don't have anything sensible to use as a comparator.

[the23.livejournal.com]

well i don't live in a cheap area by us standards, but houses in the less entertaining midlands seem to be around twice the price and rent is much lower here even though i'm in something of a cultural hub, taxes are lower (we pay 13.7% of our declared income in income taxes but most of that is for social security (=national insurance) and there is no sales tax), running a vehicle is much cheaper (i'm not sure about insurance though), there is no tv licence to pay (of course there isn't a whole lot of beeb), no equivalent of council tax (unless you are a property owner). we live comfortably (large apartment, two vehicles, cell phone, cable internet and tv, plenty of alcohol and frequent social outings including many to seattle) on around $25k a year. anything over that is saved for retirement. i reckon to live this way in england would require more like 25 thousand quid and that would be feasible but it would mean much more work. there is no way i could do so in such beautiful surroundings sinc eall the nice bits of the uk are too remote or hideously expensive. now if only they would legalise betting on the internet here.....

[beingjdc.livejournal.com]

Here, friend for you, argue / agree with him.
tithonus