Black Sails panel at Nine Worlds
Aug. 15th, 2018 06:09 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
julietThere was a BLACK SAILS panel at Nine Worlds, and ACTUAL LUKE ARNOLD was on it! (Along with Gavia Baker-Whitelaw, Cynthia So, and Ally Wilkes. The title was "Black Sails: an intersectional look at sexuality and queer representation". I have a few (somewhat disjointed) notes for those who are interested, although I'm afraid this isn't what you would call a thorough writeup.
SPOILERS BELOW FOR THE WHOLE THING
I enjoyed the multiple references by various panelists to Flint as a "murderous ginger skinhead" (...in an affectionate way).
From a queer perspective, one of the great and wonderful things about it is just that there are so many queer characters (unlike most other dramas, whether historical or contemporary).
A: it wholly lacks any of the standard contemporary 'labelling' or 'coming out' journeys/arcs. She instead argued that Flint has three different 'coming out' arcs (none of which look like a modern one):
LA then talked about that scene, which apparently they shot in a single night, treating it like a play. Silver, from his perspective, didn't treat it as a revelation; more as a solution to the puzzle of Flint. So it was in a sense an 'aha!' moment, but only in that it explained things, not in that Silver cared about any specific elements of it. And the discovery didn't stop Flint from being "an agent of chaos" (LA). "A ginger murder machine" (Abi).
LA: "all we did on that show was talk about the show".
He knew about Flint's backstory during S1, but the rest of the cast/crew didn't; which meant that no one (inc the audience) understood Flint in S1, until the reveal in 2.05. Apparently they started off S2 with the first four scripts in hand, and then as the 5th script was given out to various people, it started going round the crew/cast -- "have you heard about Flint?!".
Someone mentioned the relationships being structured in threes, from where they talked about Rackham/Anne/Max in particular being set up as a unit from Rackham's speech early in S2 (?) -- rather than setting it up to wait for the jealousies to hit, as one might expect to see in pretty much any other drama. Which then meant that instead of jealousy as a driver it was about negotiating changing landscapes of sex and affection -- as in Anne's "I can't be your wife" speech. [at this point the panel and half the audience made squeaky emotional noises. We love Anne.]
LA talked about Silver really being a McGuffin in S1, with the Urca schedule in his head. Then his story becomes one about trust and inclusion -- and the very first time he really includes himself with others, he loses his leg.
There was an audience question as to whether Luke has any physical stuff he took away from the show. "Some people stole a lot of stuff," he said. "Like, a lot of stuff. I didn't.". He did, however, when shooting his last scene in what had been Eleanor's office in S1, realise that the note he wrote in ?1.03 was still there. Apparently that was the first scene he shot, and it was absolutely terrible, because with five or so people in the room, it had to be shot over and over again from different angles, and he had to keep writing this damn note, and at the end of the day they all left thinking "right, that's it, that was terrible, we're going to be cancelled tonight". So he pocketed that after he shot his last scene in there :) But he gave his crutch over to the showrunner, saying he never wanted to see it again :D
Gavia talked about queerness in the context of finding freedom, and of anti-imperialism. Later LA talked about the show having a more nuanced view of piratical freedom than is often shown: "can we live in a world that lets us be part of it".
Gavia: "the show forces you to think about resistance and empire".
C: It shows the different views of different people, rather than presenting a monolithic right/wrong (cf Madi/Julius); personal safety vs fighting against injustice.
A: The show doesn't pick a side between guerrilla war and fighting via trade, forcing you to question what is a legitimate or proportionate response.
G: "Civilisation" is clearly shown as "the monster", where we usually experience it as a neutral or positive word.
LA: The various places that are visited aren't just "oh hey it would be fun to shoot there", they're all set up to show/represent different aspects of the theme of civilisation.
Stories are revolutionary; they change hearts and minds.
C: the show makes you question history, and who's writing the story.
Who tells your story, is it you, or is it them? (At the show's end, are we all listening to a story told by Rackham, have we been all along?)
LA: Silver's loss of leg is very personal to him, and then taken by Billy to give him a source for his political machinations. Silver is forced to take it -- to take his story -- back again (but thereby also has to take on Billy's story along with it, at least in part).
It was an interesting panel, and I'm definitely glad I went. I did wonder though whether having Luke along would have worked better with a slightly different panel title (it seems that he was added very late), and/or whether the rest of the panel were feeling at all restricted by having him there on what they might have otherwise said. (Maybe not!)
SPOILERS BELOW FOR THE WHOLE THING
I enjoyed the multiple references by various panelists to Flint as a "murderous ginger skinhead" (...in an affectionate way).
From a queer perspective, one of the great and wonderful things about it is just that there are so many queer characters (unlike most other dramas, whether historical or contemporary).
A: it wholly lacks any of the standard contemporary 'labelling' or 'coming out' journeys/arcs. She instead argued that Flint has three different 'coming out' arcs (none of which look like a modern one):
- His relationship(s) in London, where coming out leads to disaster.
- When Ashe asks him, in Charlestown, to 'come out' in the sense of talking about Thomas as part of why Flint wants what he wants. (Flint seems to have pretty much agreed to this before everything goes to shit.)
- The fireside conversation with Silver, where he tells Silver about all of it.
LA then talked about that scene, which apparently they shot in a single night, treating it like a play. Silver, from his perspective, didn't treat it as a revelation; more as a solution to the puzzle of Flint. So it was in a sense an 'aha!' moment, but only in that it explained things, not in that Silver cared about any specific elements of it. And the discovery didn't stop Flint from being "an agent of chaos" (LA). "A ginger murder machine" (Abi).
LA: "all we did on that show was talk about the show".
He knew about Flint's backstory during S1, but the rest of the cast/crew didn't; which meant that no one (inc the audience) understood Flint in S1, until the reveal in 2.05. Apparently they started off S2 with the first four scripts in hand, and then as the 5th script was given out to various people, it started going round the crew/cast -- "have you heard about Flint?!".
Someone mentioned the relationships being structured in threes, from where they talked about Rackham/Anne/Max in particular being set up as a unit from Rackham's speech early in S2 (?) -- rather than setting it up to wait for the jealousies to hit, as one might expect to see in pretty much any other drama. Which then meant that instead of jealousy as a driver it was about negotiating changing landscapes of sex and affection -- as in Anne's "I can't be your wife" speech. [at this point the panel and half the audience made squeaky emotional noises. We love Anne.]
LA talked about Silver really being a McGuffin in S1, with the Urca schedule in his head. Then his story becomes one about trust and inclusion -- and the very first time he really includes himself with others, he loses his leg.
There was an audience question as to whether Luke has any physical stuff he took away from the show. "Some people stole a lot of stuff," he said. "Like, a lot of stuff. I didn't.". He did, however, when shooting his last scene in what had been Eleanor's office in S1, realise that the note he wrote in ?1.03 was still there. Apparently that was the first scene he shot, and it was absolutely terrible, because with five or so people in the room, it had to be shot over and over again from different angles, and he had to keep writing this damn note, and at the end of the day they all left thinking "right, that's it, that was terrible, we're going to be cancelled tonight". So he pocketed that after he shot his last scene in there :) But he gave his crutch over to the showrunner, saying he never wanted to see it again :D
Gavia talked about queerness in the context of finding freedom, and of anti-imperialism. Later LA talked about the show having a more nuanced view of piratical freedom than is often shown: "can we live in a world that lets us be part of it".
Gavia: "the show forces you to think about resistance and empire".
C: It shows the different views of different people, rather than presenting a monolithic right/wrong (cf Madi/Julius); personal safety vs fighting against injustice.
A: The show doesn't pick a side between guerrilla war and fighting via trade, forcing you to question what is a legitimate or proportionate response.
G: "Civilisation" is clearly shown as "the monster", where we usually experience it as a neutral or positive word.
LA: The various places that are visited aren't just "oh hey it would be fun to shoot there", they're all set up to show/represent different aspects of the theme of civilisation.
Stories are revolutionary; they change hearts and minds.
C: the show makes you question history, and who's writing the story.
Who tells your story, is it you, or is it them? (At the show's end, are we all listening to a story told by Rackham, have we been all along?)
LA: Silver's loss of leg is very personal to him, and then taken by Billy to give him a source for his political machinations. Silver is forced to take it -- to take his story -- back again (but thereby also has to take on Billy's story along with it, at least in part).
It was an interesting panel, and I'm definitely glad I went. I did wonder though whether having Luke along would have worked better with a slightly different panel title (it seems that he was added very late), and/or whether the rest of the panel were feeling at all restricted by having him there on what they might have otherwise said. (Maybe not!)
no subject
Date: 2018-08-15 07:00 pm (UTC)https://twitter.com/nanayasleeps/status/1028315433659719680
https://twitter.com/cyphonocerinae
and/or whether the rest of the panel were feeling at all restricted by having him there on what they might have otherwise said. (Maybe not!)
Yeah,
http://reluming.tumblr.com/tagged/my-ridiculous-nine-worlds-2018-experience
Though apparently he described Silver as "arguably straight" not once but twice, which is an interesting choice of words which (to me) seems to beg for someone to say "That's an interesting choice of words, could you expand ..."
But people are obviously (and very understandably) concerned about not crossing boundaries or making stuff weird for cast, which inevitably means it's going to be a different conversation from the one you might have without him on the panel.
no subject
Date: 2018-08-16 04:53 pm (UTC)Thank you for those links, I am going to go read some fic now :)
no subject
Date: 2018-08-16 06:11 pm (UTC)Doesn't make it not interesting to know what they may have thought or intended, but they're not in charge of the fannish sandbox (and it's not fair on them to make them the arbiters of it).
Plus I suspect there's a general fannish element of "let's not ask so they can't say something stupid about it and then we'll have to like them less."
To give them credit, the Black Sails lot (Arnold and Steinberg especially) seem to be very good about not Word-of-God-ing anything -- there's an interesting moment in an interview where Steinberg says, well, he has his personal theory about what happens re: the ambiguous ending (which he carefully does not disclose), but as a viewer, someone experiencing it, he doesn't want the showrunner's opinions dictating to him.
I feel like there might have been non-weird ways of raising the issue of potential queer subtext in the show, particularly when you've got a cast member who is clearly Tumblr-aware and seems to be trying to be a good ally (and is saying things like "arguably straight"). But I can entirely understand people deciding to not go there.
no subject
Date: 2018-08-19 03:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-19 04:28 pm (UTC)Good work that man!
I enjoyed his recent reTweeting of:
no subject
Date: 2018-08-16 09:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-17 02:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-19 03:46 pm (UTC)I will note that over the course of the whole show it's a lot less BOSOMS AND SWORDS than the first few eps suggest; fannish consensus is that it really gets good from S2 onwards (although S1 sets up a bunch of necessary stuff). People do carry on getting stabbed and/or shot a lot, though, don't get me wrong (I am not much one for very gory stuff and felt that it was fine/appropriate.)
no subject
Date: 2018-09-01 05:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-08-19 04:16 pm (UTC)May I assist in the persuading?
FWIW, a LOT of people bounce off the first few eps, some very hard; I think
no subject
Date: 2018-09-01 04:32 pm (UTC)Er. Thanks for the advice, I think I will give it another go, I'm just sandbagging a bit. :-)
[1] And I've heard some really big values of 'n'. 18 once, I think.
no subject
Date: 2018-09-02 08:13 am (UTC)Honestly, I think that's perfectly legit, and Black Sails requires a substantial investment of time/energy because I'd say its n is about 6. So it's a hard sell.
I slogged through most of S1, enjoyed S2, was seriously impressed by S3, and S4 blew me away.